Adventures In the Sky Podcast – E04

Flying Fillies: Adventures In The Sky Podcast E04

Story of WASP Susie Winston Bain

Welcome to the Adventures In The Sky Podcast! Watch the video version below and subscribe on your favorite podcast platforms including Amazon Podcast, iTunes, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Deezer, and more.

Story Highlights

2:31 – Ash scattering ceremony at Avenger Field

13:04 – Landing in a cabbage field

15:19 – The B-26

26:58 – Adventures with the Veteran’s Association

37:45 – Training

40:04 – Dating Carson Bain

Podcast Transcript

Welcome to the “Adventures in the Sky Podcast,” sharing inspiring stories to empower you to be dreamers and doers, for the sky’s the limit. Proudly presented by “Flying Fillies,” an uplifting historical adventure book inspired by the Women Air Force Service pilots, WASP of World War II. As America’s female aviation pioneers, the WASP are the original power girls. Hi, I’m Christy Hui, author of “Flying Fillies.” In every episode, you’ll hear stories from the WASP, kin of WASP, women aviator pioneers sharing their secrets to success, and their trials and tribulations pave their inner journey to becoming trailblazers.

Christy Hui:
Hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of Flying Fillies Adventures in the Sky. I am so delighted to be having a conversation with Debbie McCray, the daughter of WASP, Susie Winston Bain. I am so happy to be seeing you today on a podcast, and I met you at the WASP Homecoming. Would you mind giving our audience a little introduction of yourself?

Debbie Bain McCray:
Yes. Hi. My name is Debbie Bain McCray. I am Susie Winston Bain’s daughter, currently residing in Austin, Texas. I have a little small landscaping business. I like to think that I learned a lot about plants from my beloved mother who besides flying, was also an absolute fabulous master gardener. So we’ve been putting seeds in the ground since I was about five years old. I have three children, one of which was wonderful enough to attend a memorial service that we did for my mother back in April in Sweetwater, Texas, which is where she was able to get her wings back in 1944.

Christy Hui:
I was at that museum on that day and witnessing the ash scattering ceremony in the homecoming events. I love to talk about that with you. What was going through your mind as you witnessed this sacred ceremony over Avenger Field?

Debbie Bain McCray:
It’s also hard to put into words to tell you the truth and not tear up about it. The irony of it is, if there’s anything funny, is that the wind was so gusty, it came out of absolutely nowhere because it was very sunny day prior to, is what most people had told us. It was somewhere in the neighborhood of 21 mile per hour winds. So, as doing a celebration of her life, so to speak, and the memorial with spreading the ashes on Avenger Field that she and I had talked about, that I wanted to do for her, and back when she was living, she was, “No honey. That’s too involved and too hard, and nobody has time to do that.” And I said, “Oh yeah, I definitely have time to do that and I’m going to make time to do that.”

So it took us a while to get down there because she actually left us in 2017. We finally got down there, but the wind again was so strong, so we say that she was kind of flapping her wings up in the sky and looking down on us. So with that, the tears were able to stop and a big smile came upon my face. And the most beautiful thing was all of the people, all the many, many people that came around, the flagpole area, helped to be part of this memorial service along with my son and my boyfriend and other fellow WASP members and families.

Christy Hui:
Yeah. It was definitely very sacred and-

Debbie Bain McCray:
Yes.

Christy Hui:
It was super windy. I remember that. It’s going every way and every which way. It definitely tells us the place where they were trained.

Debbie Bain McCray:
Right, exactly, and just to the picture even further, they could not even fold the flag. They had to fold the flag, the Color Guard inside of the building in order to get the flag folded properly.

Christy Hui:
And you’re right though. It’s almost like her spirit.

Debbie Bain McCray:
I know, I’m telling you-

Christy Hui:
It’s there, right?

Debbie Bain McCray:
Yep. She pretty much has the last word in anything, whether she’s living or flying above us.

Christy Hui:
Yes, her presence was definitely felt. I was there. It was remarkable. Now, so your mom actually had that wish and she told you about that wish before she passed?

Debbie Bain McCray:
No, actually, it’s so sad to do, but it’s something that I encourage all families to do and definitely it’s just something that needs to be done, where you have that conversation and you decide at the time of her death, how does she want … especially, does she want a military funeral, et cetera. And what we did here in Austin for her, we had many celebrations in her honor, but at the church that she’s been going to for well over 30 years, we had military service there. And there was a little fun story about that too, because the minister said that she forgot to tell the neighborhood all the neighborhood about having the service there.

So when they did the three-gun salute, it made some neighbors wild up a little bit that weren’t aware of what was going on. As far as Sweetwater is concerned, we went to the Homecoming and it was her decision to be cremated. I had spoken with my other siblings and told them that I thought that this was a good thing for us to do, and it just felt like it was the right thing to do, so we did. So we didn’t have any huge conversation about it, other than the fact that she just wanted her any kind of memorial service for her to be as kind of smooth as possible and not … my mother, I think one of the most beautiful … it’s so hard to talk about this and not tear up. I’m trying to keep it together.
Okay, she was just such a remarkable, beautiful, beautiful young woman and mother and friend, and you just can’t say enough words about her and pilot of course, too. I think her probably number one, besides being very funny, amazing characteristic about her would be how humble she was. And I feel like the world today, we really need a lot more of that. She was never one of those kinds of people asking for anything from anybody ever, even all the way up to her, how her funeral would be handled. And it was to me a no-brainer that we were going to have a military service because it was just the least way of honoring her, I think.
And then, having her ashes here in our home for so many years, I just kept looking at the homecoming and thinking, we need to do this. So, we finally did and it was just … I’m so glad we did, and we had an opportunity to speak for the group, again because it was so windy. They took that whole service inside the breakfast area where people spoke in terms of their loved ones that had been in the WASP and shared stories and laugh. I mean, laughter is a huge part of it. We have to laugh, and they have so many amazing funny stories as well that it’s hard to record all of them. I think each time that you have an opportunity to go to one of the WASP Homecomings, you hear of a new story as well as the courage that all of these women had during a time that this was kind of even unheard of.

Christy Hui:
Yeah, I definitely think that you’ve done a great thing, an honorable, respectful thing for your mom and just being there just to feel … you could feel the honor and the tribute paid to these women, the WASP and your mom. So kudos to you and your family for doing that and of course, the National WASP Museum for putting up such a sacred and solemn ceremony.

Debbie Bain McCray:
And really what completely just was so touching was as soon as you walked into the museum area, they had this absolutely beautiful, which they’re still keeping, I guess you would call it … well, it was in honor of her, but it was … let’s just call it a display for lack of anything else to … of all of her pictures and some description on where each picture took place and what was going on within the picture. So those could continue to be recorded as part of the history of the WASP families.

Christy Hui:
Now, every WASP who joined the WASP program, I’ve learned that they have a unique story. Does your mom have her? What’s your mom’s story? How does she join the WASP program?

Debbie Bain McCray:
Okay. Well, this is kind of interesting, because I always asked her that too. Let me back up for a second. I just want to share that. Many times people would say, what’s it like being a daughter or child of the WASP, and she really never said anything, honest to God.

She said she would just say, I flew planes and again, this is part of her almost being too humble. We wanted to know, what do you mean you just flew planes? That was pretty much it, because she was a southern woman. She was never a southern bell, that’s for sure, but she was a southern woman, and pretty much back then, in that era, when she was married to my dad, she took kind of the backseat.

Let’s just call it that. Yeah, so some of her funny stories, and I think this is the funniest one. Do you want me just to share a story or-

Christy Hui:
Yeah, I would love to hear that. Most women in that era of 80 years ago do that, right? I mean, that’s the life.

Debbie Bain McCray:
Exactly it was and it was so funny because I mean, once we really learned all of the courageous and her dedication … we always knew of her dedication to World War II and also, just to the servicemen and how they needed to have help and ferrying the planes or towing targets and all of those kind of things, but didn’t really get a chance to catch in on any of the stories until she finally let her hair down, so to speak, and started talking to some reporters and others and being recorded in magazines and going to the University of Texas on multiple occasions for presentations, et cetera. Before I share a story, which I’ll of course, never be able to do it any justice like she can, because she was the original pilot, but I’ll do the best I can.

People would say, “Susie, you should have been on the David Letterman Show or something because you’re really funny.” And some of the women that were up on the panel with her would have to be cued in on what to say and everything, and she would just roll with it. You know what I mean?

Christy Hui:
Mm-hmm.

Debbie Bain McCray:
So I think one of the funniest ones was they were on a mission, and unfortunately, the clouds came in, the weather was really inclement and it was unsettled, and she had to land the plane somewhere. So she landed it in a field, I think they said it was like a cabbage field or something. She saw a big enough space where she thought, “Well, I can just land for a while and we can figure out what’s the next best step to do.” Well, during this whole procedure, she lost contact with the air control.

Christy Hui:
The air control.

Debbie Bain McCray:
Yeah, exactly. Air control. So, here she is landing the plane, and she saw kind of out in the distance like a little farmhouse or something. This man came running out with a shotgun, and he’s like, “What are you aliens doing on my land or something like that.” And she takes off like you would in the movies or something, her helmet … her hair is flying free. And he goes, “Oh my God, you’re a woman.” I just love this story. It even gets better because he goes, “You must be hungry, and that kind of thing.” So, then she and her co-pilot at the time went in and they still don’t have any communication to the air control.

So at this point, they have a plane missing and two people missing, and they’re not exactly sure where they are. So mom was just kind of for a brief second, getting a sip of water and enjoying ourselves a little bit and relaxing really, until the weather kind of settled in. And then, she realized, she’s like, “Oh my God, I got to call air control and let them know that we’re alive and well.”

Christy Hui:
She didn’t get shot at, did she?

Debbie Bain McCray:
Yeah, in some farmer’s house, in the cabbage patch, in New Orleans. So anyway.

Christy Hui:
That’s hilarious, but she didn’t get shot at, right? The farmer didn’t shoot the plane.

Debbie Bain McCray:
No, didn’t shoot the plane and was … but it is really a clip you could see on a film or something. Just a little small episode.

Christy Hui:
What was her favorite plane?

Debbie Bain McCray:
The B-26s, by far. She definitely liked the B-26s. She said it was the B-26 Marauder. As she told me at one of the homecomings that we attended, I want to say it was back around 2015 or so, or maybe earlier, but right prior to her death. She would say … and she was actually interviewed that night too. So the interview that took place that night that was down at Sweetwater is recorded in the Texas Historical Commission in Austin, Texas. Just a little voiceover of a segment that they did on World War II. So I just wanted to add that. She said to me that night, she said, “Honey, it wasn’t all glorious or anything, like some people portray it to be.”

She said, “I was only five feet tall and weighed about 100 pounds,” and they put these Zoot suit things on us, and I had to roll it up just to even be able to get to the pedal to start the plane. She said that sometimes she would literally have to crawl in from the backside of the plane and crawl her way in instead of being able to open the door and get into the cockpit and such.

Christy Hui:
Was she underweight? Did she meet the requirements?

Debbie Bain McCray:
She wasn’t really underweight. She was just always very tiny, very petite woman. Yeah. No, I don’t think she was underweight, but she said the Zoot suits were just ginormous and I’ve seen that.

Christy Hui:
They’re 44L.

Debbie Bain McCray:
Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And a little bit bigger for her, so she’d have to roll them all the way up to her knees. I really think the most comical thing, as you would say, it was comical, is I would ask her when I was younger, I said, “Mom, you can’t literally find your way out of a paper bag.” So in Greensboro, North Carolina, where we spent a large part of our lives where she got married to my father, we had just a shopping center area, and it might’ve been ballpark, I don’t know, 15 miles from our house or something. I wish you would get lost on the way to the shopping center. And I’m saying, “How in the world could you possibly fly a B-26 Marauder, and you can’t go from point A to B?”

And she goes, “Oh, it was real easy, honey. The controls were right in front of me.” That was literally her answer. I thought that was pretty funny too. So we have just a lot of stories of that nature that she shared with us, but I just love all of these women and how courageous all of them were and how they set such an incredible example for young ladies that really want to pursue their future dreams, whatever it may be.

Christy Hui:
Yeah. They’re unstoppable.

Debbie Bain McCray:
Yeah.

Christy Hui:
Did your mom know how to fly before she joined the WASP?

Debbie Bain McCray:
Well, of course you have the training program and everything. Is that what you mean, or no, she-

Christy Hui:
Yeah, was she a pilot before she joined the WASP program or she learned how to fly during the WASP program?

Debbie Bain McCray:
Yeah, she learned how to fly during the WASP … yeah.

Christy Hui:
Her love for flying the B-26, that’s really remarkable because not all of the WASPs were trained on the B-26.

Debbie Bain McCray:
Exactly. Well, and then, the times were so hard back then, so she was working and hated every minute of it, no offense, at the accounting firm, Deloitte and Touche in Houston. And she was making $85 a month, I believe it was. And she told them, she goes, “I have to make $95. You have to give me a $10 raise.” And her boss was like, “Well, why do I have to do that?” She goes, “Because I’m going to flight school and the only way I can go to flight school is I have to afford it.” And he was like … he kind of just sat back apparently and grinned a little bit and said, “Well, I guess you have to do what you must do.” So we actually did give her the raise, and then of course, she went to the flight school.

What is amazing to me is when … of the story is when Jackie Cochran and Nancy Love who were both women, of course at the time, wanting the same dream, which was to open it up so the women could fly, that the numbers are just astounding. 28,000 women actually applied.

Christy Hui:
25,000 applied.

Debbie Bain McCray:
Yeah, 25,000. Yeah and then, I believe 1800 and something actually went to school, and then-

Christy Hui:
1100 graduated. Yeah. That’s remarkable.

Debbie Bain McCray:
I know and then, just to think of those numbers, do the math, it’s pretty, pretty remarkable to have that person as your mother.

Christy Hui:
Right. What’s the one thing she always say about being a WASP to you?

Debbie Bain McCray:
Well, I’m going to be really candid on this one because I think it’s important. So she wanted to be recorded in history that it wasn’t so much as that she was a woman pilot. Okay? So she was taking away the … it was simply that she was a pilot, that she had gotten her wings and that she was successful in that, but that she was able to serve the country and that the school was very tedious and a lot of long hours. She would describe Sweetwater as full of rattlesnakes as they do that snake round up or whatever it is. That nature there in Sweetwater is known for rattlesnakes and a lot of dust piles. And I think that’s again, tying it full circle back into her ceremony there on the-

Christy Hui:
Right, the wind.

Debbie Bain McCray:
The wind, yeah. The wind. Where’s the wind taking us next?

Christy Hui:
Right.

Debbie Bain McCray:
Yeah, she was just always a very, very strong, determined person, as she likes to say, who just believed that you have to do what’s right and that as individuals, we all know the right thing to do, and it’s important that we also follow our dreams and our heart, and I think that she did.

Christy Hui:
Yeah, she want to do her part. It’s not about, “I’m a woman and I want to be a pilot, a woman pilot.”

Debbie Bain McCray:
Right.

Christy Hui:
Her motivation was to support the war, if I’m hearing you correctly.

Debbie Bain McCray:
Yes, 100%. Yeah, that’s exactly what her motivation was. She was in school at the University of Texas. She was the head of her sorority, and they were doing a little cheer at the time that they sounded out that Pearl Harbor had just gotten bombed, and that was a really earth-shattering moment for her and many others. That’s when she fully made up her mind that she was going to do whatever she could to do her part to serve in the country.

Christy Hui:
That’s a remarkable time, isn’t it? That really rallied the whole country, men and women, children galvanized everyone’s spirit and effort, help out with the war. Did she ever talk to you about some of the biggest challenges she faced during her WASP training?

Debbie Bain McCray:
So in our family, just the physical side of the women in our family, we always have had … we have really strong legs and my grandmother, she was the oldest female of nine children in her family, if that makes sense, okay? So, we nicknamed her “Sister”, and that was my mother’s mother. She would always say, be proud to stand on your feet because no matter how small or big they are, they’re your feet. You’re walking on it. It’s your path. So the same with mom. So very strong legs, but upper body was just not … and as many women actually, we’re not necessarily born with-

Christy Hui:
Upper body strength.

Debbie Bain McCray:
Upper body strength. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So as in training, she kept going by the chin-ups where you have to hold the bar, which is hard enough as is because we also have pretty bad arthritis in the family. So gripping things is not the easiest of tasks. So, she had to grip the bar like anybody does for a chin-up, and it was just quite the struggle for her to get her chin right over that bar. So that’s what she would say was of all the training skills and drills that they had, that was your most challenging.

Christy Hui:
That would’ve been mine too, because I could never pull myself up.

Debbie Bain McCray:
Yeah, I know. I know. Exactly.

Christy Hui:
I know. Yeah. Was there any scariest things that your mom ever did as a WASP? I mean, getting shot at is pretty scared, but are there anything else?

Debbie Bain McCray:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don’t think she really ever shared any stories along those lines. No, I don’t think … and I’ve looked back at many of the different, the books. I want to … probably, this is a good segue. There’s a book I was looking at, it’s called … it’s okay to talk about this, the Voices of the Silent Generation by Barbara Ballet Moran. On page 72, I’m just going to read what it says because it’s kind of interesting. It says, “The WASP transported personnel and supplies toward aerial gunnery targets and ferrying war-worn planes home. Former WASP Susie Bain describes occasional acts of sabotage, and the pilots need to find their own way home after delivering aircraft.” I don’t know if that’s necessarily this … it’s scary for many of them, actually. It was horrifying.

Christy Hui:
Yeah. They were playing a role that the society wasn’t ready for.

Debbie Bain McCray:
For sure. Yeah.

Christy Hui:
It was surprising in many, many towns, and I’ve heard that so many stories of the WASP pilots landed in small towns and dressed in these Zoot suits, and only two have hotel owners or motel owners wouldn’t … denying them from having a room for overnight.

Debbie Bain McCray:
Yes.

Christy Hui:
So all those kinds of things pile up because how are you going to spend the night at this town, make your way home, if you don’t even allow to check in to a hotel? And just simple things like that.

Debbie Bain McCray:
Exactly. I do have another story I want to share.

Christy Hui:
Absolutely.

Debbie Bain McCray:
I was so fortunate that during the latter part of her life, I was able to take care of her. It’s so sad to see such a strong-willed, and I don’t mean strong-willed in a nasty way. She’s just very assertive, let’s say that, where a person taking care of herself for many years. So when she got to the point where it was difficult for her to drive and to do things that we tend to take for granted until the age hits us, where it’s just … and I’m talking almost all the way to 93 years of age, but when I first started taking care of her … there’s actually a book on this too, but it’s called When Roles Reverse. And that’s just kind of a natural flow of life. She never really had any, I don’t want to say accolades, but benefits, so to speak, as a result from serving in World War II, okay?

Because for a long time, I mean, there was actually a fire that took place, a lot of the records were lost, DD214 numbers, et cetera, et cetera, things of that nature. So it was really hard to prove that she was actually a pilot during this time and that this is what took place, and this is when she served. So all of those, that paperwork at what the essential to have. Anyway, so we were sitting around the kitchen table one day and she said, “Well, let me just call down to the Veterans Administration and I’ll just see,” because it never hurts to check out and see if she has any benefits as a result of serving in World War II, okay?

And we’re talking pension and things of that nature. So she called … and definitely medical to be able to be on the VA medical policy. So she called, and for all I know, mom was just an amazing woman, and almost everything she did, but sometimes she would tend to not necessarily talk to exactly the right people for the right subject that she was looking for. So she called down there and she asked … and I don’t even know to this day who it was, but she had mentioned that … when it came to talking about herself, she wasn’t very assertive, I want to use that word. I know I said the word assertive earlier, but when it comes to talking about herself, she’s not that assertive. So she would feel like, “Well, there’s not anything, I don’t know why you would think that there would be any benefit as a result of serving in World War II.”
Anyway, long story short, she called down there and he goes, “Well, yes, let me just check just one more second now. What division did you serve in?” She said, “I was in the class 44W4.” And what year? She said 1944, et cetera. So he puts down the phone, and again, for all I know, this was a janitor talking, I think she’s talking to. I don’t know, and puts down the phone, he comes back on and then he goes, “Well, yes ma’am. As a matter of fact, we have checked and you do have half of a burial plot.” And it was kind of humorous because she was like, “Oh, so I can bury half of my body, but not the other.” I thought, well, I’m pretty sure either he’s pulling your leg or I don’t know who the heck you’re talking to.

So anyway, we managed to get all the document and data. Data across our tees, put together a whole platform of pictures and everything. So, here we are sitting in the VA’s office, and I’m telling you, probably 75% of the people around us were men, maybe even 85% of the people were men and substantially older men. And there, we’re sitting and we’re waiting to be seen in the VA office to see if there’s something more than just half of her body to be able to be buried in the spot. It was just crazy, and the woman was so sweet. So finally, we got a hold of the right person, which was an act of Congress, and basically her first question to us was, “Well, how bad have we done?”

She knew that sometimes … I mean, just like any other kind of service, sometimes mistakes happen and things are overlooked and you talk to the wrong people and et cetera, et cetera. And then from that point forward, they straightened it out and she pretty much had her own good medical insurance. What they did do for her, which was eternally grateful, is they helped her at that time to get a hearing aid, because what they said, which was true, is they could pretty much prove that the noise of the planes that these women were constantly subjected to, definitely had an impact on their hearing.

Christy Hui:
To suffer from hearing loss.

Debbie Bain McCray:
Yeah, hearing loss, because it was just so loud all the time.

Christy Hui:
Did your mom have any lifelong WASP friends?

Debbie Bain McCray:
Yes, she did. Yeah, I read about that, yes. One of her really, really good friends was a woman by the name of Millie Dalrymple. They were actually bay mates in Sweetwater.

Christy Hui:
Nice.

Debbie Bain McCray:
And she was hilarious. I adored her, because she was a tennis player like myself, so we always got to exchange tennis stories, but she was just a whippersnapper, to say the least. So she and mom, yeah, they got along really well and had fun together.

Christy Hui:
How would you describe the camaraderie between them, their friendship?

Debbie Bain McCray:
Well, I wouldn’t say just not them, but one thing that I’ve observed for sure when I went back for the service for mother in February is we noticed that just the whole camaraderie in general of everybody is just … it’s like a special, very, very special group of women that all have that in common, all have the fact that … and their families, which some of the family members actually did go on to get their pilot’s license as well, probably as a result of being exposed to it. It’s almost hard to put into words really. It’s almost unspoken words really. It’s just the fact that it’s … I’m going to call it maybe kind of an energy.

It’s an energy collectively that everybody was able to share then, and that hopefully the surviving families can continue to promote and share that energy now.

Christy Hui:
One of the things that I think is most captivating to me, because I’m … of course, I looked at the WASP as my heroes, and my mom isn’t a WASP. As I come to learn about the WASP and feel their … to get to know their story, I just think that there is a super glue amongst them.

Debbie Bain McCray:
Yeah. That’s the word. Super glue is perfect.

Christy Hui:
And then, their sisterhood … they’re always so humorous. There’s a lot of comedy going on between them, the banters, right?

Debbie Bain McCray:
Yeah.

Christy Hui:
The stories they share. It cracks me up just to listen to that on the sideline, and women 80 years ago doing such courageous and outside of their expected roles.

Debbie Bain McCray:
Right, exactly. One of mom’s favorite sayings was even after all of her gardening years as well. The last thing you’re ever going to see me do is knit one and purl two. And she said, “Not that I don’t have great admiration for people that do that,” but mom was … talk about just a barrel of energy. She just always had something going, but not necessarily … I would say Christy, not necessarily in a social way as much as just constantly wanting to learn new things. Let’s put it this way, at 95 years old, she would work a jigsaw puzzle on our kitchen table that was a thousand pieces. And then, the grandchildren would sit around and even attempt to try to do it, she’d have half her side already finished and she’d kind of just look up and say like, okay, so-

Christy Hui:
Now do your part.

Debbie Bain McCray:
It’s taking you so long.

Christy Hui:
Right. Right. That’s about the determination that you talked about that your mom has in all of the WASP hat.

Debbie Bain McCray:
Yes.

Christy Hui:
They do what they had to do in life, very impressive.

Debbie Bain McCray:
It is so impressive, and we actually had … after that movie, what was it, Sully came out. The one about where the birds flew into the propeller and caused it kind of an eruption within the structure of the plane, and he had to land it down in New York, Manhattan Bay there. He had to land the plane there. He managed to save all of the passengers, every single one of them. And I asked her, how much of this is Hollywood versus how much of this is really true? She goes, it’s 100% true, because that’s how precarious it is when you’re flying, right? So you’re in this humongous machine, and so if you just do the slightest little thing wrong, it can go nose diving down quickly. So yeah, so I just shared that.

Christy Hui:
Yeah. Open sky, right? You’ve got all kinds of risks going on. As a pilot, you had to be calm and cool-headed. Exactly, and to be able to deal with unexpected situations, that’s the first quality of the pilot. A good pilot, right?

Debbie Bain McCray:
Yeah. I was just going to say this is a cute little story, during her training. So she was flying the B-26s and the PT-8s, I believe it is. So, she had a really cute little instructor, and I’ve got the cutest picture of them, and they were equally right about the same size. So she was trying to land the plane during the training and she couldn’t … speaking of noses of the plane, and she couldn’t figure out quite how she wanted to land it because there really wasn’t very much area to land it in at the time. She goes, “Well, there is that little patch of water down there, and I think if I can just tilt the nose just enough to land it in, I will be able to land this plane.” And that’s what she’s saying to her instructor at the time.

And he’s like, there’s no possible way. You’re going to be able to land this plane in a patch of … a little patch of water down there. She goes, well, I just need to try. That’s what I mean by resilient. So she was just like, “No, I really think …” for her, which is very interesting, and I understand how she saw this, it was kind of putting it in at the right angle. Now, as I’m even telling this story, I feel like she and I … and whether that’s a hereditary factor, I don’t know, but I see life very much as an angle too, whether I’m gardening or playing tennis or any kind of sport, I can see … you can see it kind of in a different way than just a flat dimensional. And I think that probably all these pilots had to be able to do that.
Had to have that skill set to be able, as you said, to think really quick on their feet and perhaps at some, many points, make life or death decisions for themselves while they were up there flying.

Christy Hui:
And they’re always up for a challenge, and it’s like the instructors is like, “Okay, don’t do it. It’s like the wrong thing to say to a boss.”

Debbie Bain McCray:
Yeah. Yes, exactly. I want to share this story because this is kind of funny too. Not funny. So my mom and dad met each other in Nuevo Laredo, and he was actually in the army and he had somehow convinced the army, he’s always a salesman. Once a salesman, always a salesman. And he was like one of those greatest salesmen and even back as a child or young man. So, he told them that he was wanting to study into medical school, So there was no way that he would be able to be on the fighting line in the war. So he convinced them of that, and that’s exactly what he did. Still he was considered to be a private. And mother was on her way to being a lieutenant.

And the rules were that in terms of courtship that you could not date down so that she would have … did you know that? So she literally would’ve had to have dated somebody of her class or above and not down.

Christy Hui:
I did not know that.

Debbie Bain McCray:
Yeah, and so-

Christy Hui:
It’s a fight in the program or that just-

Debbie Bain McCray:
I don’t know if it’s the ones for the Airforce, but I mean, I just know that that’s when … it must be in the WASP, because that’s what they said, that you cannot date down. Anyway, she dated down and got married. Anyway I just wanted to share that story because she thought that was kind of interesting. And she was like, I’m very glad I did. And actually, the humorous part of the story is that and this is very characteristic of my dad, if I can segue for just a second, because he came to pick up her bay mate as a date. So here’s some camaraderie, and she was not ready.

Mom came to the door and said that she was getting dressed and she had her hair in curlers, but she would be there in a minute, and he literally grabs her arm and says, “Nevermind, I’ll take you.” And so I guess that started their whole secret romance.

Christy Hui:
Well, they are still best friends, the bay mate and your mom.

Debbie Bain McCray:
I know-

Christy Hui:
He did something right.

Debbie Bain McCray:
Yeah. They managed to get around that. One thing I definitely want to say though, in all seriousness is again, her being meek and not talking a lot about that role of her life, and I think some of it is when the grandchildren came around and she was busy putting plants in the ground and doing gardening and all of the other activities that she was involved in. Then in 2010 when they finally got awarded the Congressional Gold Medal of Honor, her life changed drastically. And I would say-

Christy Hui:
How so?

Debbie Bain McCray:
Well, because newspapers would call us, and that’s when she started doing talks and presentations, and it was a humongous time in her life. I had … my children were all in school at the time, and I absolutely took them out of school, and we put together a whole family trip to DC to honor her there.

Christy Hui:
They finally had their well-deserved, even though it was delayed, spotlight.

Debbie Bain McCray:
They really did. They really did, and it’s kind of funny, my brother would say … because I was down right with her on the floor, but my brother would say, “All he could see was a sea of gray, because everybody’s hair was gray at that time,” looking at it from his perspective. It was just absolutely incredible. And then, not only that, but with the help and assistance of Ellen Miller, now, the fact that … You know Ellen Miller, she’s a writer like yourself, and her grandmother was a WASP. So she writes a lot about her, her grandmother.

Christy Hui:
Right, I think she is the lady with a book about Arlington.

Debbie Bain McCray:
Yes. Right. Exactly. She was the one that completely turned that around so that now women can be buried in the Arlington Cemetery. As a matter of fact, I think her grandmother was one of the first women to be buried as a result of their perseverance and their love for the WASP and their honor to the country to be buried in the Arlington Cemetery.

Christy Hui:
Yeah, it’s such a great journey. Finally came to a head. Now, I want to switch the spotlight on you a little bit. Are there any specific qualities of your mom as a WASP that influenced you growing up?

Debbie Bain McCray:
Let me think about that. Well, I know, again, her perseverance and determination to succeed as she did in almost everything she did, I feel like one of the biggest messages that she really ingrained in all of us was just to never give up. Just don’t give up, just keep moving forward in whatever it is that you do, and to put your best foot forward and to do the best that you can do in whatever you do.

Christy Hui:
How has your mom’s love for flying influenced your family? Did any one of you take up flying, become a pilot?

Debbie Bain McCray:
Nope. Not this family. Nope, nobody, but we certainly honor and I’m actually, trying to find a spot in our home where I can create just a small area or an area for her photos and books and everything where it doesn’t end up looking like a museum, but you know what I mean, because they stuck many … I have so many. In fact, the last time that we were there in February, I bought a lot of old archives of newspapers, et cetera, that she had saved all the way from back in that time, back in that era.

Christy Hui:
Well, that’s wonderful. Yeah. So that’s a project.

Debbie Bain McCray:
What I feel like she really instilled in me more so, besides the never give up, is I have a little landscaping business and just every single seat I put in the ground, I think of her. It took me forever to be able to go to a nursery, because we used to always go to nurseries together and laugh and pick out plants and just have fun together, and we both have very different unique styles about how we garden, because she would always create the spot and then, go get the plant. And I’m always a little bit more on the artistic side in that, I want … if I see something that I like in the nursery, then I’ll go get it and then just create a spot.

Nonetheless, we had the same goal, which was I think to create beauty around us. She was always that person that would … besides being master gardener and having a green thumb, just wanted peace in a really … I think that’s a huge underlying tone of hers. She never liked confrontation in any kind of way and just always wanted to make everybody’s world better.

Christy Hui:
Yeah, I heard that also, the WASP, while they were at Avenger Field and training, some of them actually created gardens during the weekends, so maybe your mom was one of them.

Debbie Bain McCray:
Maybe, I don’t know anything.

Christy Hui:
I came across stories like gardening, sun tanning. I saw pictures, so I wouldn’t be surprised that your mom was one of the WASPs that did that.

Debbie Bain McCray:
No, I wouldn’t either. In fact, yeah, the fields looked absolutely beautiful because we were there again in February and the wildflowers were out everywhere, and it’s just absolutely stunning all over on the field. I got to tell you, spreading her ashes. And with that wind, I mean, it was so, so windy that the Colonel that normally just does that ceremony by herself, I asked if I could walk alongside of her and she said yes, and we would just have to really hold tight so the ashes wouldn’t just fly everywhere. There wasn’t any kind of a strategic placing of them because the wind took it over. I mean, that is literally how strong the wind was that day.

Christy Hui:
I know. I was there. It was so crazy at that point.

Debbie Bain McCray:
Yeah.

Christy Hui:
Now, so I have one final question for you, Debbie.

Debbie Bain McCray:
Okay.

Christy Hui:
You have interacted with lots of WASP, which I considered a blessing to be able to meet real life heroines like that. What three words would you use to describe your WASP interaction, if you had to describe your experience with them, what words would you use?

Debbie Bain McCray:
Heroes, now, and forever. Can I do it in four words? Not to say that … yeah, I was thinking, what is that little thing called The Ant? Yeah, heroes, now, and forever.

Christy Hui:
And they are, their spirits definitely are living amongst us. And as we circle back to that Avenger Field that day, the wind with their eyes on the sky, that’s how I … it’s a great story. Thank you so much for sharing your personal moments and funny stories of your mom. I appreciate it, and I’m sure our listeners would appreciate that as well. They’re always forever heroes of us.

Debbie Bain McCray:
I will just interject that if you’re in North Carolina at UNCG University of North Carolina at Greensboro, there’s a beautiful exhibit that has some of her uniforms and other important papers and stories there. There’s also a museum in Denton. I don’t know the name of it off the top of my head. And then of course, the wonderful WASP Museum down in Sweetwater.

Christy Hui:
In Sweetwater, Texas.

Debbie Bain McCray:
Yeah.

Christy Hui:
Yes.

Debbie Bain McCray:
And I don’t think you can say enough about any of those people.

Christy Hui:
It’s extraordinary. Well, thank you so much for coming onto the show, Debbie, again for the time.

Debbie Bain McCray:
You’re so welcome.

Christy Hui:
Yeah, and sharing these amazing stories, like you said, heroes now and forever.

Debbie Bain McCray:
Exactly. And I just want to thank you so much for spending this time together and also, for helping to keep our stories alive and strong and to honor all of those beautiful, wonderful people that made the decision and made the right choice. I guess that’s another thing you could go segue into is just, they made that choice and they stuck with it, and thank God they did, because now other women are able to, like you said, follow in their suit.

Christy Hui:
Yeah. They are our inspiration, our real-life heroes. So thank you so much again, Debbie.

Debbie Bain McCray:
Thank you.

Christy Hui:
That’s all for this episode. Thanks for listening to the Adventures in the Sky podcast. To all of you dreamers and doers, believe in your dreams for when you dream and do the sky is the limit. Until our next story, unlock your extraordinary within and live inspired. To join the Flying Fillies Adventure Club, visit www.flyingfillies.com.

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