Adventures In the Sky Podcast – E03

Flying Fillies: Adventures In The Sky Podcast E03

Story of WASP Dorothy Lucas

Welcome to the Adventures In The Sky Podcast! Watch the video version below and subscribe on your favorite podcast platforms including Amazon Podcast, iTunes, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Deezer, and more.

Story Highlights

2:48 – How Dorothy Developed A Passion For Flying

5:06 – Dorothy’s Short Service As A WASP

5:49 – Dorthoy’s Favorite Memories As A WASP

7:50 – Regional Reunions

10:58 – Tom’s Favorite Memories Of His Mom

17:56 – How did Dorothy’s Passion For Flying Influence The Children

19:31 – How did being a WASP change Dorothy’s life

20:22 – What did Dorothy Say About Being A WASP

24:34 – Dorothy The Brave

Podcast Transcript

Welcome to the “Adventures in the Sky Podcast,” sharing inspiring stories to empower you to be dreamers and doers, for the sky’s the limit. Proudly presented by “Flying Fillies,” an uplifting historical adventure book inspired by the Women Air Force Service pilots, WASP of World War II. As America’s female aviation pioneers, the WASP are the original power girls. Hi, I’m Christy Hui, author of “Flying Fillies.” In every episode, you’ll hear stories from the WASP, kin of WASP, women aviator pioneers sharing their secrets to success, and their trials and tribulations pave their inner journey to becoming trailblazers.

Christy Hui:
Welcome, everyone. I have the pleasure of speaking with Tom Lucas today. Tom is the son of the WASP, Dorothy Smith, also known as Dorothy Lucas, class 44-W-7. Tom, thank you for joining me today, and I would love it if you could introduce yourself to the audience.

Tom Lucas:
It’s my pleasure, and I really appreciate you doing this. Like you said, my name’s Tom Lucas, and currently live in Austin, Texas, I guess I’m fourth in the line of five kids, but the only son my parents had, so I guess I’m their favorite son. And, I’m really just proud of my mom, and the purpose is, I’m grateful to you, Christy, for doing this to ensure that the history and what these women sacrificed and the trails they blazed are not lost or forgotten.

Christy Hui:
Definitely, the WASP are my heroes and my inspiration. So, I am so excited to be speaking with you, because I think every WASP have her unique story, and we are here to talk about your mom’s story today.

Tom Lucas:
Great, I’m anxious to share.

Christy Hui:
Yes, so thank you for joining me, and let’s get started. The WASP has been flying for more than 80 years. I’d like to know, first of all, how your mom developed an interest and a passion for flying.

Tom Lucas:
Yeah, I think my mom was always adventurous, adventurous spirit, and actually, a friend of hers mentioned to her that they had this program, and my mother was enrolled in secretarial classes at George Washington University in the District of Columbia and working at the Pentagon as well, just as a secretary. And so, when her friend approached her, they said that there’s this flying program called the WASP for women. Would you be interested? Well, she filled out her application and sent it in, and that was the only impetus she needed. It just sounded exciting, and so she sent it in, and at first, she was too young, so she got a denial notice. And then once she turned, ’cause I think you had to be 20 years old or, yeah, so she reapplied, I guess when she hit the right age and was accepted.

Christy Hui:
That’s incredible. So she did not know how to fly before she joined the WASP?

Tom Lucas:
She did not, and I think all the women had to have 200 hours or-

Christy Hui:
Yes.

Tom Lucas:
There was some requirement to have ground school and an element of flying, so she took flying lessons in Frederick, Maryland, which was outside the District of Columbia because you couldn’t fly within 50 miles of the capitol. And she borrowed $200 from her mother, who, you know, back then, was a lot of money, and she went out there with this other woman, and they learned to fly in a Steerman. And that got her the qualification back for a flight that she needed to eventually go to Sweetwater. I’m not sure my grandmother had a lot of money anyway, so I think it was a big sacrifice for her as well, but I think it just shows that I don’t know, they thought a little bit differently back then, and I’m grateful for it.

Christy Hui:
Yeah, did her friend also join the WASP program?

Tom Lucas:
Yeah, that’s an interesting and sad story, ’cause right before they were scheduled to leave for Sweetwater, her name was Margaret, and I don’t remember her last name, but her parents convinced her that it was too dangerous, they didn’t want her to fly, and so she didn’t go with my mother to Sweetwater. She became, instead, a flight attendant for Penn Central Airlines and was actually killed in a plane crash.

Christy Hui:
That’s so sad.

Tom Lucas:
And I know that there are tons of those stories that are out there, but boy, it really hits home.

Christy Hui:
Your mom joined the WASP program in 1944, so how long did she serve? Not too long, right?

Tom Lucas:
Yeah, she started in the spring of 1944 and graduated, I think, in September or October of 1944, so that was the only time she served. Then she was stationed at Moore Field in Harlingen, Texas, in the valley. And that was her administrative assignment until the WASP was disbanded in December, so it was only during that time that she served.

Christy Hui:
A few months.

Tom Lucas:
Right.

Christy Hui:
Three months, wow. What are some of her favorite memories as a WASP that you heard?

Tom Lucas:
I can always remember my mom talking about how much she loved the AT-6 and flying in it. And later in life, when we were able to get her a ride with the Commemorative Air Force or whatever, she was like, “Well, they offered me to take the stick, “but I didn’t rack it over or anything like that.” So I know she was pretty adventurous anyway. I think the memories that she had are just the camaraderie and the friendships that she made. She never indicated she missed flying. I think she could have continued, but I don’t think she ever indicated that she missed it, I certainly think she missed the sisterhood,

Christy Hui:
The camaraderie.

Tom Lucas:
Yeah.

Christy Hui:
I think that really, for me, it was so unique about the WASP that the sisterhood they have. And does she have any lifelong friends from the WASP program, Tom?

Tom Lucas:
I think she did. She stayed in touch with my mom and was really outgoing. My dad was more of a wallflower. But my mother was pretty outgoing, and she always had really good friends throughout her life, so she stayed in touch with some of the WASP, especially those that were in Austin. Millie Dalrymple is one, I think her little cockpit or airplane is actually on display in the WASP Museum in Sweetwater, but she lived in Austin, and Mom played bridge with her and a number of others. And it’s just interesting because Millie’s grandchildren went to high school with my children, so-

Christy Hui:
Wow.

Tom Lucas:
So they’re all intertwined. It’s a very small world when you realize it. But she did stay in touch, and I think the reunions that they had, starting in probably the 80s or whenever it was really kept her in touch with a lot of other people despite the distance in miles.

Christy Hui:
So, she did make the journey every year to go to the homecoming events.

Tom Lucas:
The homecoming seemed to come later, but they had these regional WASP reunions. There was one that we took her to in Dallas, and she’d been to some others that maybe my sisters had taken her to as well. But once they started doing the annual things in Sweetwater, we took her pretty much every year for about the last, I don’t know, eight or 10 years.

Christy Hui:
That is so heartwarming. Being at Sweetwater, that was my first year where I met you, I could feel the energy in that hangar in that museum, how special it is to be on that ground.

Tom Lucas:
Yeah, it’s very tough to know that there are very, very few of them. My mother just passed away May a year ago. She was 99, and I always thought she’d be a centurion.

Christy Hui:
Oh, I’m sorry.

Tom Lucas:
No, I mean, she lived a very full and happy life, and we were certainly blessed to have her in our life for that time. But those annual reunions, every time we would be driving home, and it was about a four-and-a-half-hour drive to get her back home, I’d say, “Well, Mom, you ready for next year?” “Oh, I just don’t know if I can, I just don’t,” but she always had some intestinal fortitude where she could reach down and grab a little extra. And she was always on point for that reunion for those two or three days; she was really in good shape, and where she was meant to be, I think.

Christy Hui:
And that’s not an easy location to get to. And so for her to make it-

Tom Lucas:
I always tell people when I’m trying to tell the story and remind people either on Facebook or something of the WASP, “Hey, if you’re driving to Colorado “to go skiing and you gotta go through Amarillo anyway, “it’s on the way, and it’s two miles off the highway. “Spend a few minutes to go there “and learn the story of the WASP.” But Sweetwater’s not a destination unless you’re in town for the Rattlesnake Roundup, which I think is in, I don’t know, February or March. I mean, it’s something you gotta go see. It’s a very important piece of history that just can’t be lost.

Christy Hui:
Yes, I was so touched when I made it last year in past April. And just to experience the energy in the room, seeing the planes that they flew and where they were trained, it just gave me a much fuller and richer experience of what they went through.

Tom Lucas:
Oh, I agree. One of the first times we took my mother back, we drove around the facility and everything and over where the main gate where the women checked in when they first arrived. And she’d been living in basically Washington DC and drove with three other women in a convertible to Sweetwater, Texas. And I got a feel like when she got out of the car, she looked around and went, “God, what have I done?”

Christy Hui:
That’s amazing. What were some of your favorite memories of your mom?

Tom Lucas:
I always relish just being able to go down to…. My mom was a character. I enjoyed going to visit her when they were living in Wimberley or San Antonio, we’d go to Fort Sam Houston, and in the quadrangle, there was some deer there. We would go feed the deer with my kids. They were tame and gave my kids a little bit of the military aspect and background and my mom. And I just know how much she enjoyed it. I don’t know if she was the perfect military wife, but she was certainly a trooper to traipse all over the country and the world with my father and with kids in tow, and she always made things an adventure for all of us and so we were blessed in that way. We were blessed that her personality was larger than life ’cause my dad didn’t talk about things much. And quite honestly, I think many of the women who were WASP kind of downplayed their role at the time. I just think it was like, that’s who they were. It was like, “Hey, we just wanna do our part, “and that’s how we did it.”

Christy Hui:
It’s kind of like your mom.

Tom Lucas:
Yeah, exactly.

Christy Hui:
Okay, the nation needs help, and I’m gonna apply.

Tom Lucas:
Exactly, and of course, when the WASP were disbanded, they had all the male aviators coming back from Europe and whatever, and they were gonna take those jobs anyway. So, I really respect the ladies who continued to fly. I think it would’ve been interesting ’cause I’m not so sure my mom wasn’t a better pilot than my dad, and he was the instructor.

Christy Hui:
And your mom, what did she do after?

Tom Lucas:
The WASP disbanded in December of 1944. She and my dad married in Houston in 1945.

Christy Hui:
Ah, so she got married.

Tom Lucas:
She got married, and yeah, from there on it was five kids, and I’m sure we really blessed her life. Actually, we probably made it more of a living hell, but-

Christy Hui:
So, when she talks about her WASP days, what was the one thing that she always talks about?

Tom Lucas:
I think her favorite story was after she had graduated and was assigned to Moore Field, where my father was an instructor, and they had started dating-

Christy Hui:
Oh, that’s how she met your father.

Tom Lucas:
That’s where they met, exactly. And so, after they’d started dating, she was coming in; she flew the tow targets for male gunners to shoot at. After she had dropped her target, she was coming in for a landing, and she saw my dad on the flight line, he had his cadets out there, and she thought, well, I’m gonna make this the best landing I’ve ever made. And she said she leveled off too high and bounced it down the runway, and probably the worst landing she’d ever done. And she always finished that story with, “But he married me anyway.” So I think that between that, and her brother was on active duty in the Air Force, and he was a navigator, and his plane actually crashed, and he was killed in that crash…

Christy Hui:
Oh no.

Tom Lucas:
..in 1944 in England. And she was scheduled to solo that day when she got the telegram from her mother. And my grandmother was actually requesting her to quit and just come on home, it was too dangerous. And she just didn’t feel like she could do that, so they actually gave her another hour to prepare mentally for the solo. And she had a classmate, Bee Haydu, or from a previous class, sat down with her, and, I think, gave her a little bit of comfort and whatever. And then, Mom went and soloed that day.

Christy Hui:
Wow, would you say is her biggest challenge during the program?

Tom Lucas:
I think so because I know how close she was to both of her brothers. She talked about ’em a lot, and they had both served in one aspect of the military. And so, despite her age or whatever, she always talked about, “Oh God, I love my brothers. “I mean, I love them.”

Christy Hui:
You said your mom’s favorite plane is AT-6.

Tom Lucas:
It is, yeah, she never talked about anything else.

Christy Hui:
The museum just purchased an AT-6.

Tom Lucas:
Right, right, and we were able to get mom flights. She was in her 80s the first time she flew with a Commemorative Air Force pilot out in Burnett, Texas, which is about 30 minutes from Austin. And I’m thinking we’d take her out there, might be a guy my age taking her up who’s got a love for vintage aircraft. A guy came down the steps, he was the same age as my mother, and I’m like, “Oh my gosh.” Never underestimate a woman, unless it’s her weight or her age, and never doubt their ability. My mom was active and a go-getter all her life, and I think it taught me a lot about perseverance.

Christy Hui:
Yes, I think that is a common trait amongst all WASP. They’re all adventurous and very courageous. They don’t let anything stop them.

Tom Lucas:
They also didn’t crave attention.

Christy Hui:
Right, humble.

Tom Lucas:
And really, they were very humble until, you know, I can’t remember if it was in the 70s or whatever, and somebody was introduced as the first female to fly military aircraft. And I think that was when the former, the people who had been WASP said, “No, wait a minute,” and that’s really when they started getting their just due and attention. And it took a few people with that never say die kind of thing, to A, to get ’em the Congressional Gold Medal and to keep their history alive.

Christy Hui:
She made it to Congress to receive her medal, though, right?

Tom Lucas:
Yeah, matter of fact, it was interesting ’cause all five of the kids made the trip as well.

Christy Hui:
Oh my goodness.

Tom Lucas:
We were all able to be there for that and that ceremony; they said it was the annex to the Capitol, and they said it was the most people they’d ever had in that building ever.

Christy Hui:
Wow, I’m so glad to see that happen.

Tom Lucas:
Yeah, it’s just fabulous, and we still talk about Mom.

Christy Hui:
Sure.

Tom Lucas:
She lives on, for sure.

Christy Hui:
Yeah, and they were finally given credit where credit was due.

Tom Lucas:
Exactly. And we’ll keep going back to Sweetwater for the reunions, and my mother’s display, I think, is there through March this year. They’re gonna highlight six WASP every year because it’s just a way to get more attention on certain ones, and so last year was when my mom’s was first put up there, and I was grateful to be able to go and see that. And then one of my sons and his family has already made the trip, and I’m hoping the other two will get there before March for sure.

Christy Hui:
That’s so nice. Now, how does your mom’s passion for flying influence you guys?

Tom Lucas:
I think it’s just an adventurous spirit. Because my mom was, or my dad was in the Air Force, and we moved around. She had four kids by the time we flew to the Philippines, and then by the time we got back stateside in North Carolina, my youngest sister was born there. So I think there was always just, and I can remember going to parades at North Carolina and Seymour Johnson when my dad was on the flight line marching with his crew and that sort of thing on the flight line. So, I think it always, you know, living on an Air Force base, you always saw planes flying overhead, et cetera. And so, I think there was always this adventurous spirit. Now, I was the only one who chose to go into the military service at all. After I got outta high school, I wasn’t sure; I think it was football and baseball that probably kept me in it. And so, after two years of college, I joined the Army, and my parents were like, “Why do you wanna be a groundpounder “when you could fly airplanes?” I took the flight aptitude test to fly helicopters in the Army, and I’d had a fractured skull before, and that eliminated me from consideration. But I was still able to go to Officer Candidate School and then Jump School and Ranger School. And so, I was the only one who followed that passion, and I’ve always had an adventurous spirit or daring, whatever, so I’d always wanna jump outta airplanes, and I got paid to do it, so that was a good thing.

Christy Hui:
Well, that’s good. At least you’re up in the air.

Tom Lucas:
Yeah, that’s right.

Christy Hui:
In your opinion, how did being a WASP change your mom’s life?

Tom Lucas:
I’ve commented about her being adventurous, but I think it gave her a lot of independence. I saw a lot of strength in my mother, intestinal fortitude, and that sort of thing. But my father battled depression for a long time while he was on active duty and then afterward. And my mom, whenever he was in the hospital or whatever, she went and visited him every day and was his, I mean, she was the rock, certainly, she was the rock of our family. And I think that being a WASP gave her insight into what she could accomplish as long as she just kept focused, and she was probably the most focused person I’ve ever met.

Christy Hui:
Gives her inner strength.

Tom Lucas:
Yes, exactly.

Christy Hui:
What was the one thing that she’d always say about being a WASP?

Tom Lucas:
You know what, she just always said, “I just loved it all.” She was asked that question on a panel at the Bob Bullock Museum in Austin when the WASP were highlighted, and she got that very question, and they said, “What was your favorite thing?” She said, “Honestly, I just loved it all.”

Christy Hui:
Hmm, loved it all.

Tom Lucas:
Yep.

Christy Hui:
What was the best advice she gave you or your siblings growing up?

Tom Lucas:
I think for me, it was once you start something, you don’t quit. She always said, “Well, I was a child of the Depression,” and she always wanted us to have good shoes. But I mean, she was heroic, and I’m almost ashamed to say, I probably didn’t view her as heroic until probably the last 15 or 20 years, probably ’cause she didn’t see herself as a hero. But come to know and appreciate that better, and so I think to persevere, to not quit as long as the goal lives in your mind, it’s possible, and follow it until that’s not a possibility, and that’s what I think what certainly I’ve tried to do.

Christy Hui:
Did she ever give you or the grandkids advice that hearkens back to her WASP days?

Tom Lucas:
I don’t know if it’s so much of the WASP, but I think the Depression, being a WASP, and the Depression probably were the two biggest events that left the biggest impact on her life. She hated for us to… She put something on our plate, she expected us to eat it, and she said, “Eat it and be thankful.” And so, for that, I was born in the 50s, so that’s still left a very vivid impression on me, and I probably passed it on to my kids a little bit too. But I just think the perseverance and the fact that I flew airplanes when nobody thought we could, and we did the job that nobody thought we could do. Don’t ever try to tell me that something’s out of reach.

Christy Hui:
Right, right, everything is possible because I’ve done it.

Tom Lucas:
Exactly, yeah.

Christy Hui:
And so, I hear you use the word perseverance, and I agree with you. They demonstrated every WASP demonstrated that quality. What other words would you use to describe your mom or the WASP that stood out?

Tom Lucas:
Certainly, I think that they were brave. Perhaps the biggest story about that, I guess, was the B-29 or something when it was just coming out and being… None of the male pilots wanted to test fly it because they considered it to be a death trap or whatever, so the WASP went up and were the test pilots, and when they landed and got out, the men saw who was doing it, I guess it struck a chord with them too. So certainly, bravery comes to mind. I used heroic because I really didn’t start using it until, like I said, the last 15 or 20 years, when you just reflect and look back. The movie “Hidden Figures” came out about the women mathematicians who did the calculations for NASA to

Christy Hui:
Yeah, the great, yes, wonderful movie.

Tom Lucas:
To orbit the moon and stuff like that. And the WASP were certainly that caliber and that kind of a people that we can’t afford to let that history die; we just can’t. So, bravery, heroism, honesty, respect. And my mom was always a lady. I rarely heard her curse, rarely. She got mad. She threw a trash can at me once when I was in high school. But she was always, you know, she was calm in the storm for sure, and I think all those experiences as a WASP made her that way.

Christy Hui:
Certainly, there’s a lot of grace. That’s why we can’t forget them.

Tom Lucas:
Yeah, so thank you to you for allowing me to do this, for bringing their history to the forefront, for your book and attendance at the reunions, and for anything I can do to help along the way, please.

Christy Hui:
Yeah, Tom, you mentioned to me that your mom inspired a children’s book.

Tom Lucas:
Oh, she did, yeah, yeah.

Christy Hui:
Yeah, tell me about that and how do our listeners get that book if they were interested?

Tom Lucas:
Well, it’s for sale at the WASP Museum, so you can contact them there. It’s on Amazon as well. It’s called “Dorothy the Brave.”

Christy Hui:
Oh, and it’s your mom’s story, right?

Tom Lucas:
It is my mom’s story, and it’s true to form, and it’s designed for kids up through about second or third grade. So my grandkids, they all have a copy; they all have a signed copy. And it was written by a dear friend of our family. Her name was Megan Flanagan. Golly, I’m almost embarrassed you asked me that. Now I can’t remember her married name. When my boys were in middle school in Austin, they were all given the task to interview somebody who had been alive during World War II or a veteran, and every one of them, all three of my boys, interviewed my mother.

Christy Hui:
Oh my goodness, how special is that?

Tom Lucas:
Well, Megan, who wrote this book, interviewed my mother, and it left such a lasting impression on her that she wrote the book about my mom. It was something she’d always wanted to do, and so she followed through. Her name is Megan Browne, B-R-O-W-N-E. That was her married name. She lives here in Austin, and I actually drove her down to San Antonio a couple of times to visit with my mother. And so, she had all the background from her report that she had done when she was in middle school, and then a couple of in-person interviews as mom was probably in her late 80s, early 90s, is kind of what prompted the book. And so, in April of 2022, I read the book to my mom, and she passed away about three weeks later. And we were able to video me reading that book to my mother.

Christy Hui:
Oh, my goodness. Did that put a smile on her face?

Tom Lucas:
Yeah, actually, it was April of 2021. She was kind of interjected because it’s my mom’s story. And I said, “Do you remember being on the farm in Norfolk?” And she goes, “Oh yes,” and Mom always remembered me and my sisters, my wife, and so we did a lot of, during COVID, I talked to her through the window at the assisted living place where she was living and always took pictures of my kids and their kids and stuff like that. So, she was always mentally very with it right up until she passed away. And so I’m grateful to have those times, and I’m grateful that I was able to read the book to her, and she actually-

Christy Hui:
Yes, just before she passed, yeah.

Tom Lucas:
She actually had a copy of it in her room on display for the three weeks, I guess, prior to her passing away.

Christy Hui:
That’s very special, that’s great. And last question to wrap up: if the WASP program hadn’t been so successful during World War II, do you think that there would be women flying for the military today in combat missions?

Tom Lucas:
Boy, that’s a hard question. I think, eventually, there would’ve been some. There are women out there who, without the WASP, would’ve been those trailblazers. They would’ve been those, you know, my wife would likely have been one of them. There are women who are strong and brave and heroic and all those things, like the women in “Hidden Figures,” they came along in the 60s and these women were flying in the 40s. There were gonna be women who blazed that trail, and so, yeah, I gotta believe that maybe we wouldn’t be as far along, but I think it’d be happening. You can’t turn a blind eye to what anyone is capable of accomplishing, be it women or minorities, it doesn’t matter. There are no bounds to the imagination, none.

Christy Hui:
Yeah, and I think that’s one of the biggest things that inspires me about the WASP is about self-empowerment. No matter how you grew up, no matter your background, if you want to set your mind to it, then you do it.

Tom Lucas:
There’s always gotta be a salmon somewhere. Somebody’s willing to swim upstream, and that person was Hap Arnold with Jacqueline Cochran and willing to support the idea that women could do that job, and I think that there are people, I think there are men out there who could support that women can do this given the opportunity.

Christy Hui:
And they answered the call, yeah. There will be people answering the calls. And so, I think that’s why we do this, Tom. May the spirit of the WASP live on and inspire all of us and all our future generations.

Tom Lucas:
Yeah, thank you for your efforts as well. I really appreciate it for having me today.

Christy Hui:
Yes, thank you, what a pleasure. Thank you for coming on.

Tom Lucas:
All right, thank you. Bye-Bye

Christy Hui:
Bye-Bye.

That’s all for this episode. Thanks for listening to the “Adventures in the Sky Podcast.” To all of you dreamers and doers, believe in your dreams, for when you dream and do, the sky’s the limit. Until our next story, unlock your extraordinary within and live inspired. To join the Flying Fillies Adventure Club, visit www.flyingfillies.com.

That’s all for this episode. Thanks for listening to the Adventures In The Sky podcast. To all of you dreamers and doers, believe in your dreams, for when you dream and do, the sky’s the limit. Until our next story, unlock your extraordinary within and live inspired. To join the Flying Fillies Adventure Club, visit www.flyingfillies.com.

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